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Interview with Sonia Gandhi

Sonia Gandhi - AFP

On Saturday, she was poised to be Prime Minister. Just weeks ago, in a freewheeling interview with Shekhar Gupta, Editor-in-Chief of The Indian Express, Sonia Gandhi spoke on what a Congress-led government would look like, its economic policies, her identity as an Indian of Italian origin. And the relationship between the personal and political.

Excerpts from the interview on NDTV 24x7's Walk The Talk:

Q: Life changes a great deal. Let me go back to where it began, when did you first come to Anand Bhavan?

A: I came to Anand Bhavan in 1970 and that was when Indiraji dedicated Anand Bhavan and Swaraj Bhavan to the nation, in terms that it became a museum, open to the public.

That was 1970, I had been married for two years, I was mother of a young baby, Rahul. It left a great impression on me. My mother-in-law was winding up, deciding which things to leave here or take, there were still some personal items here. She was describing to me-and one of the friends who had accompanied us-what all happens in both these houses.

Q: From whom did you first hear about the freedom movement and the politics of those years? Rajiv or your mother-in-law?

A: Certainly from my mother-in-law. In fact, whenever she was free or when you were - seldom though - holidaying with her, she would recount and tell us about her childhood, her youth, which, of course, was part and parcel of the freedom struggle.

Q: But you never imagined at that point that either your husband or you would ever get caught up in this?

A: No, never. I never imagined that. I had just come here for marrying Rajivji. And that never crossed my mind or my husband's mind for that matter.

Q: But you never thought when you got married to Rajiv that you were marrying into a political family?

A: When I came to this family, I was a complete anaari on what was going to come.

Q: Anaari means novice, but it's not an apt translation...

A: But you know what it means. Here, this house, they moved in here precisely about 104 years ago, Motilal Nehru. And Mahatma Gandhi came here in 1919. And that was when Motilal Nehru was persuaded by Mahatma Gandhi and by his son to join the movement.

And in 1919 when the non-cooperation movement was launched, it was in this courtyard that they made a huge mountain of all imported matters, mostly dress materials, and they made a bonfire as a symbol of rejecting foreign goods.

Q: But when you came here in the 1970s, you were much more an Italian than an Indian... you were here for a very short time.

A: Yes, at that time I was adjusting... to life here, to ways of thinking, but that is something that happens to every young bride when she gets married.

Q: Because India in 1968, 1970 was very different from India 2004. And for somebody who came from Europe, there would be serious adjustment issues.

A: Well, there were many similarities of mindset, cultural, at least of that period, of the country that I came from and India.

Q: Give me some examples of similarities...

A: Of family bonding, the way the family is together, respect for certain values. But, of course, I can say that there was certain amount of adjustment, which had to be made. But it wasn't as difficult as perhaps...

Q: ... as you may have imagined before you came here?

A: Frankly, I came here because I was madly in love with my husband, and he was with me. So nothing else mattered. It didn't matter what I had to face...and that also helped.

Q: Did you have any apprehensions, kabhi ghabrahat hui?

A: No, ghabrahat nahin, at least I can't recollect any such ghabrahat. The fact that it does not remain in my mind means that there wasn't such a major... there was sort of adjustments perhaps of food or dress, little little things.

My mother-in-law was very understanding, and she tackled me very cleverly unlike perhaps some other mothers-in-law I know who force their daughters-in-law to be, you know, 'you have to do this...' She allowed me to be myself. She didn't force me into things that she felt I could be uncomfortable with, and I think that was a very intelligent way of tackling me because on my own I slowly adjusted, and did things that if perhaps, had she told me to do I wouldn't have done.

Q: Like what?

A: For instance, if we go to a wedding, you have to wear a sari. Or you have to eat Indian food... slowly I started eating Indian food, now I can't do without it.

Q: Then in Delhi you didn't get much pasta, but now you do-half the Punjabi chefs in Delhi make pasta...

A: Yes, I know, but I am very fond of Indian food. In our house, we eat mostly Indian food. Occasionally, some friends come and ask for pasta, then it is made.

Q: Do you cook?

A: No. I used to when my husband wasn't in politics. I used to look after my family, I used to look after my mother-in-law, and she did occasionally enjoy western meals... but when I got married I didn't know how to cook. I had to learn from books.

Q: So what were your mother-in-law's favourites?

A: Well, she did enjoy pasta, occasionally.

Q: That's what your critics say sometimes: Congress party ka ek hi raasta, bolo Italian khao pasta. Have you ever heard it?

A: (Laughs) Yes, I have heard it.

Q: Tell me, what else did you learn from your mother-in-law? She was a tough woman.

A: She was a very strong woman, but she had a very gentle side to her... a side that very few people know. She had an eye for detail. If someone was unhappy or unwell, she would immediately notice and she would immediately do something about it. Perhaps by jotting down two lines.

I remember when I got married, my mother came to the wedding and she stayed for a month. And when she was going, obviously it was a sad moment for me. And my mother-in-law sent a little note to me: 'Hi Sonia, this is just to tell you that we all love you'. And that totally melted me. It gave me a lot of strength, that I am loved and cared for.

Q: Do you have any recollections from that time of her responses to things that were happening in India which showed her character to you... something that made her angry, something that made her very determined?

A: She was at her best when faced with challenges. If she was pushed to the wall, there was pressure on her, she would come out and really fight back.

Q: Give me some examples...

A: When there was a party split...

Q: In 1969.

A: Yes, she came out and fought. I remember the elections for the president at that time.

Q: Sanjeeva Reddy and Nijalingappa... Reddy was the presidential candidate.

A: Yes, that was a time when she came out strongly, aggressively.

Q: Was that the first time when you saw her as the Iron Woman as she came to be known?

A: Yes.

Q: And the Bangladesh war, do you recollect any of that?

A: Yes, Bangladesh war was a very exciting moment for all of us, we lived every moment of that crisis in our family. I remember when Mujibur Rahman came to Delhi from London, there was a big reception at the airport, though I was about to deliver my other child the next day, I made it a point to be there at the airport. There was such excitement.

Q: What was the conversation on your dining table like during the days of the war?

A: Well, mostly we were getting reports of the atrocities by the Pakistani army on the people of Bangladesh. Then the crisis of-I think we had 10 million refugees-from Bangladesh. Nowadays, when you read about 3 million refugees, a couple of hundred thousand refugees, the whole world...

Q: But during those 13 days of the war, is there something that Mrs Gandhi said at the dining table that you remember?

A: Obviously, she won't come out with the details, but she would certainly talk that today this happened, they have killed so many people, so many refugees have come in.

Throughout that period she was composed, calm.

Q: The other turning point in her political career, the Emergency. What side of her did you see then, and how did you and Rajiv respond to the Emergency?

A: Well, my mother-in-law herself, after she lost the elections, she did say that she had a rethink on that. And the very fact that she declared elections proves she had a rethink on the Emergency.

Q: Do you think that she really thought that it was a mistake?

A: I think she did think it was a mistake. Don't forget that, at least the Indira Gandhi I knew was a democrat at heart, to the core. I think circumstances compelled her to take that action. But she was never quite at ease with it.

Q: But did it come across at conversations at home, that she was not at ease with it?

That she wanted it to be over?

A: Yes, there were instances, through what she said, from which one could understand that. I can't recall any particular instance but I can recall that at times she was uneasy about it.

After that, the Opposition, the public opinion responded to Emergency. Remember that slogan? Emergency ke teen dalal, Indira, Sanjay, Bansi Lal, that public rejection... was that a low moment in the family as well?

Well, there is no way we can say that the Emergency was right. She herself said it wasn't right. But there was a great deal of propaganda against Mrs Gandhi, deliberately done. And I think there were even some reports post-Emergency that went into details of the family planning programme which turned out to say that the problems were magnified. Yes there were problems, but not in the scale that the Opposition had built up.

Q: Emergency was a lesson that no government will repeat. It is not possible to bring in so much authoritarianism in India.

A: I guess yes, but those were different times.

Q: Do you remember this coming up between Mrs Gandhi and Rajiv or between Sanjay and Rajiv?

A: I do remember, but I wouldn't like to disclose it.

Q: 25 years have gone past, maybe you should.

A: Maybe another 25 years, maybe I'll write it some day.

Q: What motivated you to come into politics? After your husband's assassination, you stayed out for sometime, but what is it that forced you, motivated you, inspired you, or told you that there is no choice?

A: Well, the Congress was going through some problems. And many of my senior colleagues came and asked me to come and help the Congress, to participate in Congress activities because they felt that it would help the party to a certain extent.

And I thought hard about it, but there was a conflict within me because I was never ever keen to join politics. In fact, I never even wanted my husband to join politics because I had seen my mother-in-law's life, her struggle... all sorts of calumnies being hurled at her, and she led a life of service, and then she was killed.

Q: So you have seen the price you have to pay for politics...

A: Yes, I have seen that. And at that time I felt about my husband that possibly the same would happen to him. In fact, after my mother-in-law was killed, I knew that he too would be killed.

Q: You knew means there was an inevitability, a premonition?

A: All of us, my children and me, knew that it was just a question of when. It was a difficult phase, but eventually... I have photographs of my husband and my mother-in-law in my office. And each time I walked past those photographs, I felt that I wasn't responding to my duty, the duty to this family and to the country.

I felt I was being cowardly to just sit and watch things deteriorate in the Congress for which my mother-in-law and the whole family lived and died. So, at that point I took the decision.

Q: It was not just the pressure from the party people coming and saying "Mrs Gandhi come and get us the votes".

A: Yes, there was a certain amount of.... party people saying that I ought to help out the party. But it was more than that. It was this feeling of responsibility towards the family. And the country... because their lives were the country, service to the people.

Q: Did you see anything happening in the country that said to you "I should be in politics"? Did you see any trends in the society or was it just the family and the party?

A: At that time there was a trend... that was 1998 and the BJP was gaining. And that was the main reason for me taking that decision.

Q: Why does the BJP worry you? It is a political party...

A: Because it is a party which believes in a divisive agenda. It has a particular agenda, which at the moment they have sort of softened or kept on the side.

Q: But haven't they given it up pretty much in a coalition?

A: No, I don't think so. Here their leaders are giving statements like as soon as we are in power by ourselves, our agenda will be fulfilled. And we all know what their agenda is. This is an agenda against which my family has fought, they lived and died for the country... they fought this agenda because this agenda, if carried out, will divide our country.

Q: And you think that they have got close to succeeding?

A: Well, at the moment it has been partially stalled because since they don't have the strength they have to have this alliance.

Q: What are the three things that your government will do that will be an improvement over the current government?

A: Well, first of all, I know there are some reservations among people on our stand on reforms... economic reforms. There should be no worry whatsoever. The policy of continuing with economic reform will carry on. Nobody should have any doubts on that.

But our economic reforms are slightly different from the BJP's. In ours, there is a very strong focus on social welfare programmes, rural development programmes, poverty alleviation programmes and administrative and financial strengthening of panchayats which has not taken place.

In the case of this government what they have done, they have chipped and chopped so many of the poverty alleviation programmes that they have become practically ineffective. We greatly admire our entrepreneurs, administrators and business class because they have done a great deal. The business community going ahead, we are all for it. At the same time we have to focus on the poor.

Q: People from the Congress who have authored economic reforms, particularly Dr Manmohan Singh, they will have a key role in the government?

A: Certainly, most certainly. Business going ahead and a special focus on poverty alleviation programme, social welfare, these are not mutually exclusive.

Q: There's no rejection of Dr Manmohan Singh or his policies?

A: No, not at all. This is again... yeh to galatfehmi hai. Kisine failaya ki hum log rethink kar rahe hain. Aisi baat nahin hain.

Q: You have been in active politics for nearly six years. What were your angriest moments?

A: More than anger it was anguish, during the riots in Gujarat.

Q: What was your immediate reaction?

A: I wanted to go there right away and I asked my office to organise it.

Q: Your commitment to the coalition idea is not just for this elections? Do you see this as India's future politics?

A: This is a trend which has started for some time, I see it continuing and therefore, as long as it is needed, we will work with other like-minded parties.

Q: Did the Congress take too long to come to this conclusion?

A: I don't think so. Till 1996, the Congress came to power on its own. The necessity was not there.

Q: But the party missed it in 1998-1999.

A: Yes, that was a mistake.

Q: You'll not repeat that?

A: No, never.

Q: What's the reason that you think this government must go, even more important than power for yourself?

A: Because they haven't fulfilled even a single promise of their's. One crore jobs - you go anywhere, if you step out of this house, you will come across hundreds of thousands of young men and women who don't know where to go. They have no future because they are jobless.

There has been no growth of investment in the agricultural sector or in the industrial sector. Kisaan aur naujavan desh ki jaan hain, hai ki nahin? So, if you don't do anything to give them security...

Q: So then where is the feel-good factor from?

A: Frankly, I don't know. I haven't seen it anywhere in the places I have been. Feel-good factor could be among some crony of the government

Q: Crony in what sense?

A: Cronies, friends... there is a lot of cronyism going on, even in disinvestment.

So, that feel-good factor could certainly be in the pockets of those people.

Q: That's a serious charge.

A: Well, I have read it in your newspaper.

Q: Well, if you keep blaming my newspaper for everything, I have to go back and do some answering.

A: You are an objective newspaper person, your newspaper is respected for that.

Q: The campaigns of the NDA government, apart from the fact that they talk about their performance, the second leg is about your origin, even your children's half-foreign origin.

A: That should tell you, that's a message to all of us that they have so totally failed that they have to kick up this one issue.

Q: But is that a liability for you or your party that you originally came from Italy? Does it work adversely with some voters?

A: It may work adversely with some voters. Frankly wherever I go, especially in rural areas, among women, among less fortunate people, I have never felt even when I first started working in Amethi that I am a foreigner or that they look at me as a foreigner because I am not. I am an Indian.

Q: You feel fully like an Indian?

A: Absolutely.

Q: When did the transition start? When was it completed?

A: Well, the transition was completed long ago. It was a slow transition. After all, marrying into this sort of family, which was part of the freedom movement, which sacrificed, which lived in complete service, seva, of the people.

They had no life outside this. So, you also imbibe and assimilate a certain amount of these feelings.

Q: So do you resent it when they talk about your foreign origin?

A: Not at all. In fact, it makes me laugh. How can I resent it if I feel completely Indian? When I go abroad, I feel a foreigner there.

Q: You talked about life outside this family, seva. If you were not in politics, if you had spare time how would you spend it? You watch movies, cook?

A: Unfortunately, I don't have much time to watch movies, though I'd like to.

But I do relax, for instance, by reading. I used to read much much more.

Q: What did you read?

A: Autobiographies, books on history, sociology... and am presently reading Shashi Tharoor's Nehru: The Invention of India, and of course, I relax the most when I have my family with me, my two grandchildren.

Q: Is there time for family vacation now?

A: I don't see it coming, not for some months.

Q: The transition from a close-knit family to a politician... what was the most difficult thing to adjust to in politics?

A: It was the fact that in politics you have to be constantly available to the people, you have very little time left to yourself and to your family. Certainly, in the beginning there was a little bit of difficulty but soon I got used to it.

Q: So do you miss the personal space that you had earlier?

A: I have got used to it now.

And I think perhaps, if I take up a job or a duty, I feel very strongly that you have to pursue that. Therefore, I don't really miss it.

Q: What would you have done with it if you had that space?

A: Well, I would have first of all loved to have done a Bharat Yatra and visit all the beautiful places that we have. I have done a little bit earlier when my husband was in politics, but in a very small way. So, this has always been one of my strong desires.

Q: Coming to the party, you have all your dadas of politics. Pachas pachas saal se they were in and out of power. It is not called India's grand old party for no reason. So, did you find a generation gap between you and the leadership?

A: No. First of all, I am quite aware that this is continuously hurled at us that you are an old party, you have only old people.

Q: It's said that the front row of your party in Parliament looks like an intensive care unit without the tubes... You have so many old people there.

A: That is not so at all. In India you have a huge percentage of young people. But in that case, since this is constantly hurled at us, I would like to ask, do the Prime Minister and the Home Minister reflect young India?

Q: No. They have seniority, but they have so many others in the party who are much younger.

A: So do we. I have many senior colleagues, I need their experience, wisdom and counsel. Also, we have a huge number of young people, you don't see them since they don't have a position of power, we are not in government.

For instance, in the last Congress government (1991-96) we had a large number of young men and women who were ministers. For instance, Salman Khurshid, Margaret Alva, Shailja, Ghulam Nabi Azad, Suresh Pachauri. I can give you at least 12-15 names offhand. They are still young, much younger than the present members of the BJP.

Q: Madhavrao Scindia once told me, "my party still keeps telling me, you are young, you need more experience, and I tell them I am 54 years old, I am a grandfather, what else do I have to do?" So your party has that problem.

A: Well, in the case of Madhavrao, he became the deputy leader in the House.

Q: But the party has also been unfortunate in losing three young leaders.

A: That was most unfortunate: Madhavrao, Rajesh Pilot, Jitendra Prasad. That was tragic.

Q: Do we then say that if you come to power, we will see a much younger Cabinet?

A: Yes, most definitely. You will also see some senior colleagues. But you will see a large number of young Congressmen and women as ministers.

Q: Do you ever find your partymen worried about the fact that your foreign origin is a campaign issue for your opponents?

A: That you have to ask my colleagues, but as far as I am concerned I travel all over the country and wherever I have been I was never made to feel or looked upon as a foreigner. I feel completely Indian and that's perhaps why they accept me as Indian.

Q: You talk of secular commitment, but it was under your party's rule that the destruction of Babri Masjid took place. Where were you and what were your thoughts at that time?

A: Well, I wasn't in politics. As the chairperson of the Rajiv Gandhi Foundation, we issued a very strong statement. That was again a day I shall never forget. In fact, that brought not just tears, we were all distraught... well, the Congress was in power in the Centre but don't forget there was a BJP government in UP.

Q: Did you see that as a failure of your party's government? When you look back, do you think something could have been handled differently?

A: I certainly think that it should have been handled differently. But then, as an afterthought when something happens...

Q: But your party had to pay a price for it.

A: Yes.

Q: Are you now giving those angry people, the Muslims, the assurance that lessons from this have been learnt.

A: Yes, absolutely, lessons have been learnt. And I am guaranteeing the right of life and property to all citizens. Such a thing won't be repeated.

Q: Where does Congress stand on the issue of temple, Ayodhya?

A: Our stand has been very consistent unlike that of the BJP.

We have always said that this has to be resolved through the court. And if there is an understanding between the concerned parties (Hindu and Muslim) even that has to have the sanction of the court.

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